Comments on Five Hole Fanatics: Ditch the enforcer

While I like that Owen Nolan, Iginla, Shanahan and...

2008-08-17T13:21:00.000-06:00

While I like that Owen Nolan, Iginla, Shanahan and a few notable others will fight their own battles, what will the reaction be when one of them breaks a hand and misses 4-6 weeks? The value of the enforcer will be made clear then.

Beyond that, the Ducks' Cup isn't that far behind us, is it? That team was loaded with so-called goons, and yet they could play a little hockey, couldn't they?

To "goon" or not to "goon". Ahhh, the great menta...

2008-08-11T16:57:00.000-06:00

To "goon" or not to "goon". Ahhh, the great mental masturbation with out the orgasm. Well, thought out argument complete with evidence to further your idea. However, you've forgotten one factor - probably because there's absolutely no way to argue it.

I like it.

Call it blood-lust. Call it wrong. Call it what you want. But you've forgotten the most basic reason to keep it- because I like it.

Now at this point your going to say, "Ah, HA! We're arguing enforcers, not fighting."

And I say, Ah-HAH! I like them too.

Debate all you want about the need, the reason, or the statistics, but I can tell you when I see a goon hit the ice my heart pumps a little more adrenaline - and I like that feeling. Another argument, that drives me up the wall is the argument from a players perspective, whining about the safety factor, and unsportsmanlike conduct a goon/enforcer participates in. However, the reason I'm watching Hockey and not Cricket is because of the "anything can happen" factor, and the enforcer furthers this.

I like hockey the way it is, with the enforcers, the fighting and the extra strategy to overcome those obstacles, and there's no way to argue against that.

Andre Roy??? of course (except he was considered a...

2008-08-11T11:11:00.000-06:00

Andre Roy??? of course (except he was considered a mediocre player at best until Daddy bumped him up), Now he is an NHL prospect, per Patrick, LOL.
Though again, my arguement is more enforcers good, goons bad. Anyone who has played knows the difference. Take Darren McCary, considered a fighter/enforcer for a long time, but still can play. I do not edorse the Worrells in the league, but i know my team is better with a mathew barnaby around ready to jump anyone who cheap shots my best players. Heck even european teams are picking up that a decent 4th liner who can fight is better than a slightly better 4th line who can not, option A is the route. And euro's were considered soft for how long??

And ya had me until calgary wins, now we are in fantasy land. (ducks and grabs jersey while yanking off helmet)

"This is the last man's sport left in North Americ...

2008-08-11T10:51:00.000-06:00

"This is the last man's sport left in North America, let them be men"

Ah, I always love that argument. All Kent's saying here, at all, is that it makes more sense to dress a good player than a bad one, yet this comment string immediately descends into a referendum on whether fighting should be around.

He said it best in the comments: "Like so many GM's, it seems to me you're clinging to a convention because that's the way it used to be and is therefore surmised to be the proper way of things."

All a real fan wants is for his team to win games. And it's bloody clear that a quality player on the fourth line helps your team win games a hell of a lot better than Andre Roy does.

If you like fighting so much, go watch UFC. I'll take watching the Flames win games, thanks.

Let me tell you something about enforcers, they ar...

2008-08-10T17:28:00.000-06:00

Let me tell you something about enforcers, they are the police officers of the NHL. Imagine our streets with no cops to keep the criminals in check. It is old school but a necessary evil for the game. After reading your post I am pretty sure you have not played in a hostile game before. Without fighting cheapshots would be at an all time high and those lousy French Canadians would have a field day, with nobody allowed to punish them without the goons. We live in a violent world, wars have been going on since the beginning of mankind, so if you think you can just turn the switch off just like that your smoking some crack. Fighting must always be a part of the game or more serious injuries will happen. Ask the Great One how he would feel without McSorely around all those years.

Ahh the ad hominem attack...my favorite logical fa...

2008-08-10T14:23:00.000-06:00

Ahh the ad hominem attack...my favorite logical fallacy.

i MADE AN if/THEN ARGUEMENT THEREFORE IT COMPUTES AS VALID. SYBOL LOGIC, MY FAVORITE.

Second you did not address my question of skill level as a hockey player therefore avoidance, and you again returned to the term Goon, not enforcer, which was the other distinction I addressed. Yes, if Avery had to actually pay for his actions he would be a very different player. He puts his hand in the goalies face (something your taught as a mite as dirty play) and an enforcer catches you next shift and bloodies you a bit, you think 2x when he says keep your hand on your stick as the ref saves you next ime around. Think he would make runs at Crosby if Laroque could hit him back?? No way, guy is a coward.

Remove instigator rules, and let the guys do their job. This is the last man's sport left in North America, let them be men, or next thing you know it will become a 'me' sport like the other 3 bigs.

I like the argument that dirty blows to the head, ...

2008-08-09T19:36:00.000-06:00

I like the argument that dirty blows to the head, stick work, and cheap shots happen because of the disdain for fighting in today's NHL. There is supposedly no one to hand out justice.

What's wrong with the ref? The league does not instruct the refs to put players away for dirty play. They are capable of making the calls, but the league's weekly video DVDs say to let it go.

I love a hard clean hit and great checking and I NEVER want to see that leave the game. I do want to see the "forearm finish to the head" that shoulder checks are often followed up by be penalized for what they are... dirty plays.

There's no reason good clean physical play can't be rewarded. The NFL is all about hitting, on every play, and yet that sport does not require fighting to change momentum or to self-regulate dirty play. They rely on the referees and the pressure of the team to say "that unsportsmanlike conduct call cost us, you blew it by losing your cool".

I've played summer hockey with guys that were "goo...

2008-08-09T18:38:00.000-06:00

I've played summer hockey with guys that were "goons" in the WHL and the NHL and they were more talented than anybody else on the ice.

While they may be a liability in the role they are used in, I contend they could actually contribute if given an opportunity.

Chris Neil is an example, so is Sean Avery. Heck Deave Semenko actually could play and was Gretzky's winger.

Remember that nice breakaway Oliwa scored a few seasons ago? That move shows the talent level.

Skating seems to be the biggest liability of "goons", so if teams would just invest in some power skating your 4th line argument would actually happen with the goons becoming better players and earning more than 4 minutes a game.

The other reason the NHL won't ban fighting, as much as Bettman hates it, every arena in the league goes nuts when the gloves are dropped.

from Dec.13 to Feb.2, a 19 game sample, Godard...*

2008-08-09T12:58:00.000-06:00
from Dec.13 to Feb.2*, a 19 game sample, Godard didn't get a single penalty minute, let alone a fighting major.

note: in the same time period you've got guys who can actually PLAY hockey getting into fisticuffs (iginla, phaneuf, nolan), with a couple of debateably useful fourth-liners picking up most of the fighting slack (nystrom, smith). even david hale threw down twice, at one point beating matt cooke into a senseless pulp.

[okay, so hale only JUST won that one, but it was DAVID EFFIN HALE !!!].

point: any of those guys can fight just fine in a retaliaion/momentum situation, so dressing a guy who's otherwise useless as a hockey player makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

if we've got primeau, nystrom, prust, and vandermeer (in this pretense, i refuse to believe andre roy will suit up for any game other than vs. vancouver or edmonton), we needn't dress a total lunkhead.

Players would still fight even if there wasn't ...

2008-08-09T12:02:00.000-06:00
Players would still fight even if there wasn't a designated fighter on every team no doubt. Hell, let 'em.

I think that the distinction needs to be made between an enforcer or designated fighter, who "sends the message" but also plays the game (from John Ferguson to, say, Daniel Carcillo), and the goon, who has no other discernable NHL-level skills (Eric Godard et al). You look at the stats, and Ferguson could actually play hockey: 303 points in 500 games, only one season with fewer than 15 goals and two with at least 20, in a career evenly split between the Original Six and the first expansion era. I have no problem with the designated fighter, as long as he can take a regular shift and not kneecap his own team through incompetence.

As to "message sending", the modern goon is so utterly impotent in the face of "new" NHL obstacles that his ability to right perceived wrongs and deter pests is next to nil.

I personally find that fact kind of distasteful. The refs aren't going to catch everything, and even if they did, there just isn't the same sense of justice from an ejection and suspension that there is from an ejection, suspension, and good old-fasioned ass-whoopin'. I've advocated removing the instigator for years, because if nothing else, there's that catharsis that comes from seeing the asshole who attacked your star "get what's coming to him." Would it end cheap shots? Of course not, but it might keep a few guys from looking for trouble when it isn't needed -- the simple psychology of punishment does work, if not to the degree some would like you to believe. And really, if someone can pound on Sean Avery with relative impunity, I bet he'd have to find a different way to play the game, and I don't see that as a bad thing.

As to the other point Xtroll made, about Gretzky skating unobstructed, Neil Sheehy, the guy who made his living by harrassing Gretzky, believes that the instigator not only contributed to stuff like the Bertuzzi incident, but the obstruction tactics of the Dead Puck Era. It's an odd conclusion, but I guess I can see where he gets it from.

As a referee, games with the deterent generally...

2008-08-09T10:28:00.000-06:00
As a referee, games with the deterent generally are cleaner, with alot less cheap work in them, at all levels of hockey.
Ask any good-to-elite player and they will agree. Hell even Gretzky made sure McSoley came with him to LA, and he was the big 'no fighting' Guy in the NHL. Note what hapened when he went to St. Louis and had noone covering his back, he was blindsided and knocked cold in weeks.
I will not question your time n hockey, but i would question your ability in it, If you were ever the offensive leader or fistline type of guy, you would change your tune on the subject quickly.

Ahh the ad hominem attack...my favorite logical fallacy.

Im afraid Im going to have to ask for proof of all these "hockey is inherently cleaner with goons in it" claims. Otherwise it strikes me as a baseless assertion. Was hockey cleaner in 03/04, for example, when enforcers dominated the PIM column? I really doubt it.

As for goons being a deterrent currently, the article details why that is no longer so. For anecdotal evidence, I came to notice that the pests you refer to (Ott, Avery, Burrows, etc.) ran amok against the Flames last year. With Godard in the line-up. Why? he was rarely on the ice when they were and when he was, they'd laugh at him and skate off the ice. He deterred no one.

The only thing Godard did last year was 1.) fight other goons and 2.) get scored on.

A goon is someone who is out of control, in todays...

2008-08-09T08:37:00.000-06:00
A goon is someone who is out of control, in todays game i would call the agitators more of a goon than the enforcers. for example: Avery spends the entire game looking to cause problems under the guise of 'getting under the skin' of other players. His behavior is generally unchecked and he is well known for running at star players setting off the bench clearing variety of fights. He has worn out his welcome everywhere because he does this even when coaches tell him to stop.

Conversly Look at George Larouque (sp) and his work in pittsburg, prior to his arrival Crosby was beaten, slashed, slewfooted, and any other behind the play cheap shot available. George went out under direction, and protected the best player. It is never uncontrolled, it is planned, and was effective.

I also have been a player, coach, and referee in hockey for 32 years (I am 36) and in all aspects I agree with the deterent of an enforcer. As a referee, games with the deterent generally are cleaner, with alot less cheap work in them, at all levels of hockey.
Ask any good-to-elite player and they will agree. Hell even Gretzky made sure McSoley came with him to LA, and he was the big 'no fighting' Guy in the NHL. Note what hapened when he went to St. Louis and had noone covering his back, he was blindsided and knocked cold in weeks.
I will not question your time n hockey, but i would question your ability in it, If you were ever the offensive leader or fistline type of guy, you would change your tune on the subject quickly.

While I may agree as to the fact there is no pl...

2008-08-08T23:22:00.000-06:00
While I may agree as to the fact there is no place in the NHL today for a "goon" only player, I feel there is a place for enforcers in the NHL.

your first premise contradicts your second one...unless you think enforcers are different from goons.

You say you've been a hockey fan all your life but I'm betting that it really hasn't been that long. Not long enough to have watched hockey before Bettman took over when fighting wasn't disdained like it is today.

Im 30 years old. I've watched hockey since I was 5. I played the game for 10 years. I've also coached it. So your bet would be wrong.

Allow fighting again and the stick work, blows to the head and cheap shots wouldn't be nearly as prevalent as they are today because there would be someone to hand out justice the next time you stepped on the ice.

The assertion that there was some golden age where violence and cheap shots didn't exist or were less prevalent (due to the "policing" by enforcers) is a dream. Ever hear of the broad street bullies? Bench clearing brawls used to drain into the stands. One of the most egregious cheap shots in league history occurred between two enforcers.

Like so many GM's, it seems to me you're clinging to a convention because that's the way it used to be and is therefore surmised to be the proper way of things.

While I may agree as to the fact there is no place...

2008-08-08T19:45:00.000-06:00
While I may agree as to the fact there is no place in the NHL today for a "goon" only player, I feel there is a place for enforcers in the NHL. Yes Bettmans NHL rules have put big damper on fighting but to the detriment of the league. You say you've been a hockey fan all your life but I'm betting that it really hasn't been that long. Not long enough to have watched hockey before Bettman took over when fighting wasn't disdained like it is today. Then you would understand the enforcers role much better. Allow fighting again and the stick work, blows to the head and cheap shots wouldn't be nearly as prevalent as they are today because there would be someone to hand out justice the next time you stepped on the ice.
While Gretzky was/is against fighting he didn't play without some kind of enforcer on the team. If someone put a hard hit on Gretzky, their next shift they would have to fight whomever Wayne's enforcer was at the time. That combined with later in his career if you hit Wayne, there would be a penalty called is what allowed Gretzky to accomplish what he did. He was able to skate unobstructed. Granted he was a gifted player but if he had to play today, he would never get the totals he did.
The rules today have made the "goon" obsolete but the need for enforcers is still there just as it was in the past. That is more to do with the teams being limited on how many players they can dress from what it used to be. I'm not sure how long ago it was but the league shortened the benches by allowing less players to dress and that made the "goon" obsolete as today an enforcer needs to be able to play also because teams don't have a roster spot available for someone with limited playing ability. Therein lays the problem, there aren't many talented enforcers today. Also when you are talented, you don't want to be sitting in the box because of Bettman's anti-fighting rules. I won't go into how Bettman has ruined hockey and it's not just because he has cracked down on fighting.

I totally agree, MG, but I'm also curious about yo...

2008-08-08T16:25:00.000-06:00
I totally agree, MG, but I'm also curious about your penultimate paragraph. There has to be some reason, some intangible reason, for the existence of goons. Deep in the id of 'hockey guys' there is this itch that has to be scratched. Whether that has something to do with how the typical hockey player 'grows up' within the strictures and culture of the game, or whether its just a fact that in the group dynamic of a physical sport there has to be a 'Dad' thats going to deliver justice, and if not justice, then at least revenge.

In baseball, you often hear the argument, that throwing at hitters in retaliation for your hitters being thrown at is 'part of the game' or 'how the game is played'. Both the hockey and baseball examples of on the field punishment for perceived unwritten infractions may be cases of players trying to keep each other 'accountable'. In a modern professional sport context, of course, the leagues, and above them, the criminal law, seemingly fill this purpose, and yet..

Comments on Five Hole Fanatics: Ditch the enforcer

While I like that Owen Nolan, Iginla, Shanahan and...

To "goon" or not to "goon". Ahhh, the great menta...

Andre Roy??? of course (except he was considered a...

"This is the last man's sport left in North Americ...

Let me tell you something about enforcers, they ar...

Ahh the ad hominem attack...my favorite logical fa...

I like the argument that dirty blows to the head, ...

I've played summer hockey with guys that were "goo...

from Dec.13 to Feb.2*, a 19 game sample, Godard...

Players would still fight even if there wasn't ...

As a referee, games with the deterent generally...

A goon is someone who is out of control, in todays...

While I may agree as to the fact there is no pl...

While I may agree as to the fact there is no place...

I totally agree, MG, but I'm also curious about yo...

from Dec.13 to Feb.2, a 19 game sample, Godard...*