tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16918358.post1653306605397758258..comments2008-07-22T10:39:32.266-06:00Cucumbersliceshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11525653363146168135noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16918358.post-62193142774420440292008-07-22T10:39:00.000-06:002008-07-22T10:39:00.000-06:00You have a good point, Rob. We're talking about marginal players on the 4th lines, so maybe goons aren't really all that bad anyways. <BR/><BR/>Let's compare Godard to the Flames other 4th line fodder - Smith, Nilson and Boyd sound like good comparables:<BR/><BR/>- Penalties taken and drawn. Godard was the worst of the three, taking 1.9/60 but only drawing 0.9 for a -1/60 difference. Smith, Nilson and Boyd were all positive by this measure, with Boyd being the best of the lot (0.3 taken, 1.8 drawn). <BR/><BR/>- Production.<BR/><BR/>Again, Godard is the worst. His ESP/60 rate of 0.35 was only better than Hale and Sarich. Even Rhett Warrener was more efficient offensively. Smith outpaced Godard by 0.44 points per hour, Nilson did so by 0.47 points per hour and Boyd by a full 1.40. In addition, no player got outshot while they were on the ice more than Godard (-11.3 CORSI), despite the fact that Eric played the softest minutes on the team. <BR/><BR/>- Defense. <BR/><BR/>Godard is actually only the second worse by this measure. His GA/60 rate of 2.60 was a full 1 goal/hour better than Boyd's rate of 3.68. Of course, qual of comp becomes a factor here (-.06 for Boyd versus -.17 for Godard). Nilson and Smith? Both superior at 1.13 and 2.18, with Nilson being markedly better. <BR/><BR/>So even when compared to other very marginal players on the club, Godard (and most other goons I assume) comes out on the bottom.MetroGnomehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15679878875910837307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16918358.post-82372789819292084672008-07-22T09:18:00.000-06:002008-07-22T09:18:00.000-06:00The Mirtle analysis is flawed as it will have no relevance until he does another calculation involving perennial 4th liners who are not goons from around the league. Since I don't want to waste my time doing such an exercise, I will simply declare that the numbers involving these players would be eerily similar to those of the hand-picked goons.<BR/><BR/>The fourth line is generally made up of:<BR/>a) up-and-coming players who can't score, take few penalties, but are needing some NHL exposure (eg. Boyd);<BR/>b) has-been or never-were oldies who can't score, take more penalties than necessary, and just happy to be in the league while the parent club waits for development of "a)" (eg. Smith);<BR/>c) goons who can't skate, can't score, and take too many penalties but can kick the shit out of his counterpart (Goddard) or at least make an interestingly enough punching bag (Roy).<BR/><BR/>Obviously, "a)" is the guy you want, while "b)" and "c)" both can be useful in taking up ice time which allows for top lines to rest up. The difference between "b)" and "c)" is that the former is better at leaving the team at even-strength while the latter at least does something to entertain the crowd.<BR/><BR/>Therefore, I'm ambivalent on the role of the goon. If the top lines are doing their jobs, the goon has less of an affect on the game.<BR/><BR/>Regarding Andre Roy, however? Stupid signing.Rob Huckhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10473341006427960031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16918358.post-5726268506911034742008-07-21T11:58:00.000-06:002008-07-21T11:58:00.000-06:00I have no idea. <BR/><BR/>Hell, Backlund won't even be making the Flames this year, so the foundation of the whole discussion is fatally flawed from the outset.hellohockeyfanshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12461396862605645397noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16918358.post-54098442715186499092008-07-21T11:44:00.000-06:002008-07-21T11:44:00.000-06:00<I>That's a brutal burden to put on such a young man -- and it may hinder his long-term development -- but now is the time for all good young men to come to the aid of the party in Calgary.</I><BR/><BR/>I actually sputtered out loud at that. <BR/><BR/>Does he think that it would actually be a GOOD thing for the team if they have a possible short-term benefit at the cost of a youngster's long-term developent? Does he think the only choice is to go for it now and then proceed to suck for about five years until they can make another run?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16918358.post-86260332617446897472008-07-21T10:37:00.000-06:002008-07-21T10:37:00.000-06:00Re Dowbiggen:<BR/><BR/>"In Edmonton, the Oilers are pinning their hopes on the callow of Sam Gagner, Andrew Cogliano and Gilbert Brule to get them back to the dance."<BR/><BR/>"pinning their hopes on the callow of"????<BR/><BR/>Sometimes spell-check is a false friend - leading one down a disastrous grammatical path.Mr DeBakeynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16918358.post-30833960888176498732008-07-21T09:38:00.000-06:002008-07-21T09:38:00.000-06:00<I>andre roy sucks and is a douchebag</I><BR/><BR/>That's about what I figured. <BR/><BR/>Here's the Dowbiggen <A HREF="http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/sports/story.html?id=f8ab055b-e6c8-4ca0-8776-ff8968e568b2" REL="nofollow">link</A> for anyone interested. <BR/><BR/>The premise of the piece is the Flames will need Mikael Backlund to step up if they want success this year. Really.MetroGnomehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15679878875910837307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16918358.post-37790867943514000022008-07-21T08:26:00.000-06:002008-07-21T08:26:00.000-06:00<I>Yeah...that Dowbiggen piece...was, uh...something.</I><BR/><BR/>Link?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16918358.post-37581719017061103702008-07-21T06:04:00.000-06:002008-07-21T06:04:00.000-06:00first time reader of the blog. cheers.<BR/><BR/>how about: andre roy sucks and is a douchebag<BR/><BR/>marginal, VERY, VERY, VERY low impact signing. dude probably won't even play much, and he shouldn't, cuz he sucks, and is a douchebag.eyebleafhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08445618400360263938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16918358.post-23649772525334396422008-07-20T22:00:00.000-06:002008-07-20T22:00:00.000-06:00<I>It's not math, it's hockey. </I><BR/><BR/>That's right. And hockey is about scoring goals and winning games. It's not a friggen street fight. I could care less how many fights Roy had or how many of them he won because I consider them largely irrevelent to the business of winning games. <BR/><BR/>You're also rightin that looking at advanced stats for a guy like Roy is pointless...because a guy like Roy is pointless period. I'd rather not have him on the team at all. <BR/><BR/><I>By the way, did anyone else read Dowbiggin's piece on Backlund this weekend? I don't want to criticize, but, yikes... dowboy has become to hockey articles what kindergarten christmas plays are to broadway.</I><BR/><BR/>Yeah...that Dowbiggen piece...was, uh...something.MetroGnomehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15679878875910837307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16918358.post-55331494396351139172008-07-20T21:46:00.000-06:002008-07-20T21:46:00.000-06:00disappointment, maybe.<BR/><BR/>puzzling, for sure.<BR/><BR/>Even taking out Nilson, I've had a hard time figuring out where everyone plays so you don't have kids-needing-ice-time sitting in the press box. Now it's not just "Who sits? Nystrom or Prust?", you have to start throwing names like Glencross, Boyd, Moss, and Bourque. Feels very much like the Mark "I'm just here to keep a good kid down" Smith signing did.<BR/><BR/>On the other hand...<BR/><BR/>Laughing out loud, DEFINITELY!!!<BR/><BR/>Bertuzzi, Phaneuf, and Roy? And Keenan? Our 4th line is Prust-Primeau-Roy? Ah man, if we could have just gotten Gauthier back too! I'm actually going to be able to agree with Flames-haters when they call us despicable goons this year, but I'm going to laughing all season long... like I've said, this is a re-tooling year, and I only care about the entertainment en-route to next year.<BR/><BR/>By the way, did anyone else read Dowbiggin's piece on Backlund this weekend? I don't want to criticize, but, yikes... dowboy has become to hockey articles what kindergarten christmas plays are to broadway.Greg Ashbyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01563417788060093006noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16918358.post-57292023768016960112008-07-20T20:40:00.000-06:002008-07-20T20:40:00.000-06:00When somebody starts dropping Qualcomp stats for the likes of Roy, I think it's about time that Flames fans start adopting a new team for the season. Otherwise we'll all be fucking miserable for 7 months. I suggest the Chicago Blackhawks, but I'm open to suggestions.<BR/><BR/>Firesutter.comMcLeahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09165834242136713347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16918358.post-41132380209909666592008-07-20T20:33:00.000-06:002008-07-20T20:33:00.000-06:00The only stats that matter with these types of players are hits and fights. Then you can look at how he did in his fights.<BR/><BR/>Looking at plusses and minuses vs. 60 minutes played against non-European team... give me break.<BR/><BR/>It's not math, it's hockey. <BR/><BR/>Godard is better fighter than Roy but Roy skates "better". Since these guys play 3-5 minutes per game and sit up in pressbox during playoffs I would take better fighter.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16918358.post-89318414359580280162008-07-20T10:38:00.000-06:002008-07-20T10:38:00.000-06:00Yeah, I looked at Roy's numbers and they were very surprising...<BR/><BR/>surprising enough to say that I have a hard time believing them. Roy was so low event last year that he had the 2nd lowest GA/60 rate on the team - and while sample size is an issue - that makes me think he must have some kind of unholy luck in terms of SV% while was on the ice. <BR/><BR/>I mean, if Roy was <I>actually</I> good at deterring scoring, you'd think he'd get more than 5 minutes a night (that is, when he was dressed at all). This is the same guy that was suspended and put into limbo by the worst team in the league last season and waived by a very bad Penguins team several years ago. <BR/><BR/><I>With the Flames cap situation, I'm pretty sure Roy doesn't even see NHL action for more than 1 game at a time as injury replacement.</I><BR/><BR/>I guess that depends on his contract. Two-way, then he can buried in the minors pretty easily. One-way and you're paying 500k for Andre Roy to beat on AHLers. <BR/><BR/>Even assuming he'll spend his time in the press-box or in QC I consider this a useless addition. I'd rather see someone like Van Der Gulik or Greentree (or a potentially useful player) get the call than some goon.MetroGnomehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15679878875910837307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16918358.post-70295786511114582462008-07-20T09:20:00.000-06:002008-07-20T09:20:00.000-06:00With the Flames cap situation, I'm pretty sure Roy doesn't even see NHL action for more than 1 game at a time as injury replacement. (or sparring partner against another heavyweight)cynical joenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16918358.post-19917323375680712862008-07-20T06:14:00.000-06:002008-07-20T06:14:00.000-06:00Roy:<BR/>GP: 63<BR/>TOI: 5.34<BR/>QUALCOMP: -0.05<BR/>QUALTEAM: -0.13<BR/>GFON/60: 1.96<BR/>GAON/60: 1.96<BR/>PENALTY TAKEN/60: 1.4<BR/>PENALTY DRAWN/60: 0.4<BR/><BR/>Godard:<BR/>GP: 74<BR/>TOI: 4.67<BR/>QUALCOMP: -0.17<BR/>QUALTEAM: -0.49<BR/>GFON/60: 1.04<BR/>GAON/60: 2.60<BR/>PENALTY TAKEN/60: 1.9<BR/>PENALY DRAWN/60: 0.9<BR/><BR/>Stortini as a comp:<BR/>GP: 66<BR/>TOI: 8.04<BR/>QUALCOMP: -0.06<BR/>QUALTEAM: -0.18<BR/>GFON/60: 2.38<BR/>GAON/60: 2.04<BR/>PENALTY TAKEN/60: 1.9<BR/>PENALTY DRAWN/60: 1.8<BR/><BR/>Looking at this I'd say he's a bit more low event than Godard against better competition and if he signs a cheap one-year deal it might not be that bad even if I can't see the need of an enforcer really.björnhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12787566650641609115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16918358.post-54793322280313545472008-07-20T01:05:00.000-06:002008-07-20T01:05:00.000-06:00I'd have to see how much he's getting paid and the length of the contract before making a decision on how this is for the Flames...<BR/><BR/>What's that? It's not a two day contract for $20? Crap...Steal Thunderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14446178049491092691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16918358.post-85933298315256435262008-07-19T18:47:00.000-06:002008-07-19T18:47:00.000-06:00When I first saw the post, I thought you meant Derek. I'm as disgusted as you are. If they really want an enforcer, I think Fedoruk would have been a much better option, at least he's got some hands used for more than bashing someones face injonesinnoreply@blogger.com