Comments on Five Hole Fanatics: Flames Sign Dispicable F'ing (&$(&$(*&!

So what if he can't play hockey? The guy sucked...

2008-07-08T23:34:00.000-06:00
So what if he can't play hockey? The guy sucked at it anyway.

The morality of Bertuzzi's act is not adjudicated by the level of his victims skill or worth as a hockey player. I think it's funny that anyone would mention it. Do you think lawyers and doctors should be able to run over bums with impunity? Would you be crying foul if it had been Jarome Iginla rather than Steve Moore?

Please stop pretending his life was completely ruined because he was forced out of the NHL, or that Todd Bertuzzi deserves the chair for accidently breaking the clown's neck.

Not only is this disgusting, it's a strawman. I dont see anyone claiming Bertuzzi should "get the chair". As for Moore - his NHL career, however YOU may personally value it, was probably really, really important to Moore himself. Which is truer test of distress or ruination. In short, it's not your life or career - or neck - that was harmed by Bertuzzi, which is why it seems such a trivial matter to you.

If he had truely desired to cripple or kill Moore, then he most certainly would have done it off the ice, and without any apologies...

As if this bit of sophistry absolves anyone of anything. "I may have stabbed him, but I COULD HAVE shot him". I wonder if any defense lawyers try to run with that in court?

It seems many hockey fans cannot grasp the true nature of a violent mind, nor are they even remotely capable of putting real suffering into perspective.

Well, you ran into it here. Beyond being a hockey nerd, I also have a degree in psychology. For your first point, are you saying that because Bertuzzi isn't a serial killer or sociopath then his action wasn't *really* that bad? I suppose you're privy to Bert's motivations and inner workings are you?

I can't even fathom what your second point is getting at. I suppose Moore's pain and suffering isn't real because it occured on the ice while playing a game? Or, is it because he isn't starving in Africa we should have no real empathy for his predicament?

Hockey is only a game, and not being able to play in the NHL is hardly on the level of murder and torture.

Moore had his neck broken. I can only assume that's a few steps beyond being simply "not pleasant". In addition, hockey wasn't some hobby or past-time for him: it was his primary career mode. In addition, it takes years of dedication, hard work as well as incredible skill to make the NHL - even as a plugger on a 4th line. That was all wiped out by Betuzzi's careless and cowardly action.

Well, to some it might seem so, but to the rest of us, it simply ain't the case...

Right. "The rest of us". Do you speak for a group of callous pricks?

You're trying to claim YOU'RE the one with a balanced a perspective here. You've written off a grevous, career-ending, potentially life-threatening injury sustained through a callous, cowardly action because, as far as I can tell,

1.) the victim "wasn't that good anyways" and
2.) It wasn't, like, the holocaust or something.

I tried not get too far into this, but your comment forced my hand. Look, Bertuzzi apparently served his time and is sussing the civil case out in court. Very well. As I said, I wont begrudge him the rest of his NHL career. The sentence, as far as the NHL is concerned, has been satisfied.

But let's not pretend, 4 years later, that Moore is any less a human being, that his predicament is any less real or unpleasant or that Bertuzzi is any less responsible for the consequences of his actions - however much he may or may not have intended for them to occur.

I think these are the last words I'll have on this issue.

Politics vs Hockey:

It's laughable w...

2008-07-08T20:18:00.000-06:00
Politics vs Hockey:

It's laughable watching others go on and on about the suffering of Steve Moore, and how Todd Bertuzzi is a monster. News-flash: Moore is alive and well, and continues to lead a comfortable life. So what if he can't play hockey? The guy sucked at it anyway. Please stop pretending his life was completely ruined because he was forced out of the NHL, or that Todd Bertuzzi deserves the chair for accidently breaking the clown's neck. If he had truely desired to cripple or kill Moore, then he most certainly would have done it off the ice, and without any apologies...

It seems many hockey fans cannot grasp the true nature of a violent mind, nor are they even remotely capable of putting real suffering into perspective. Hockey is only a game, and not being able to play in the NHL is hardly on the level of murder and torture. Well, to some it might seem so, but to the rest of us, it simply ain't the case...

Enjoy the 2009 season...

Bertuzzi will just help the young punk Phaneuf ...

2008-07-08T10:41:00.000-06:00
Bertuzzi will just help the young punk Phaneuf learn his true goon like talents.

Yeah, the over/under on face-washes probably crept up a little.

Hey the way I see it, now I can watch one team and...

2008-07-08T10:32:00.000-06:00
Hey the way I see it, now I can watch one team and see 2 of the top 5 dirtiest players. Bertuzzi will just help the young punk Phaneuf learn his true goon like talents.

I like your thinking, Joe, but I think the real ke...

2008-07-08T09:05:00.000-06:00
I like your thinking, Joe, but I think the real keys to next year will be Lombardi, Boyd and Moss. Sutter has been forced to bank hard on all these guys taking a step forward - if Boyd and Lombardi can outscore soft competition and/of if Moss can become an effective checker (Travis Moen, for example), there'll be less emphasis on the Iginla's line carrying the load.

It's possible I guess...but that sure is a boatload of "ifs".

Robert:

My thinking is running close to you...

2008-07-08T01:51:00.000-06:00
Robert:

My thinking is running close to yours, BUT I'm a little more pessimistic. The problem I see is that although a Bertuzzi,Langkow, Iginla line won't get killed ES their goal differential is probably going to go down. That might be a bigger problem if overall GF are down (loss of Juice, Tanguay and Nolan) because then Iggy's line plays more and more and it becomes a bit of a vicious circle. If that's the case, then I'll worry more about an injury to Jarome then one to Bert. The key to making Bertuzzi on the first line work is that the second line will have to pitch in more, and what I think is the real key to the offseason FAs, is that we've got to scrape a PK together out of Borque and GlenX and Conroy and Boyd that can get our PK into the top half of the league. So even though we're all biting our fingernails about Bertuzzi, I think the key guy is going to be Borque.

I have this sneaking suspicion that Bertuzzi is he...

2008-07-07T23:00:00.000-06:00
I have this sneaking suspicion that Bertuzzi is headed for the left side of the first line, particularly if the stuff about Iginla pushing for the signing is true. That may not be a total disaster for two reasons:

First, he might be able to keep up with a Langkow-Iginla pairing. They're more mid-tempo guys than Lombardi, so it might be a better style fit. Second, moving Cammalleri to Lombardi's line might help with scoring balance, and Lombardi certainly deserves better linemates than what he was subjected to last year. Cammalleri could still be part of the first PP group. That's still not much of a best case scenario, but that's as good as could be hoped for.

Wow . . . I can feel the rationalization kicking i...

2008-07-07T21:41:00.000-06:00
Wow . . . I can feel the rationalization kicking in as I type.

1) We didn't have much of a choice at this point anyways. It wasn't a strong FA market to start, and a week in it's pretty picked over. It seems Sutter wanted Nolan, but couldn't get him on the appropriate deal.

2) He's a clear second line player on the team, which means there's a better chance that a checker isn't going to have to play out of role. If it's Bertuzzi vs. nothing, then Bertuzzi strengthens the third and fourth lines (while he's healthy).

3) Sutter is clearly learning from his mistakes. There is a huge difference between Bertuzzi and Primeau, Nilson, and Warrener, namely the length of contract. A year from today, none of this will matter. It's a temporary fix, and nothing more.

That being said, for Bertuzzi to be a success this year he is going to have to avoid both injury and sucking. That's a tall order.

Im not disagreeing with you. You're painting the r...

2008-07-07T21:36:00.000-06:00
Im not disagreeing with you. You're painting the rosiest scenario. I'll admit it's possible. It's what I hope for. What I expect is something in between that and the worst possible outcome (injured all year, poorest possible performance, etc), but only time can tell.

By upside, I mean his offensive contribution at on...

2008-07-07T21:14:00.000-06:00
By upside, I mean his offensive contribution at only 1.95 million. Do I wish he was Juice at 1.4 million? Yes. But would I take Doug Weight at 1.75 million over Bertuzzi? No. Seeing this year's free agent frenzy, a 1.95 million signing is like a 1.2 million signing a year ago. It's quite the bargain with someone of Bertuzzi's pedigree.

It's a low risk, high reward. Although he may not be the best human being, but like Tiger Woods, it doesn't matter if he produces.

I'd be more upset with pedestrian play, than limited production with a significant on-ice effort.

He will likely play in the top 6, rather than being a healthy scratch in the press box.

Even in his damaged state he was scoring a point every other game. I honestly think he'll have a positive effect with the linemates he plays with, and if he can stay healthy he can provide offensive numbers that we need.

Would you all be ready to go to battle without a veteran top 6 presence? I think we all knew we needed some more punch.

Would you have sacrificed some youth or draft picks to get that scoring? Think about the alternatives, and what this signing can turn into and the deal seems to be more shrewd and clever.

Like I said, who would you rather have?

Jokinen minus Lombardi & Boyd & future picks?
Tucker?
Fedoruk?
Weight?
Rolston for 4 years?
Ruutu for 3 years at 1.3?
Recchi at 1.25 + bonuses?
even Cooke for 2 years at 1.2? how about Ryan Johnson?
How about Laraque for 3 years at 1.5???

Just let it play out, and see if he hits 70-ish games before we really get angry.

Question, do you think the Flames are engaged in damage control by attaching Iginla's name to the signing? I know it made me feel better.

I feel that the public is dizzy with indecision. On one hand we've disliked him for so long, on the other hand we KNOW that it could be a great signing, and that he got him cheaply. (4 million per just ONE SEASON AGO)

I forgot to bring up Bertuzzi's "other" upside. <...

2008-07-07T20:43:00.000-06:00
I forgot to bring up Bertuzzi's "other" upside.

If you're at the Saddledome, and Bertuzzi is about to hit anybody into the boards, shout out at the top of your lungs, "HEY BERT! END HIS CAREER!"

People nearby will either have a good laugh or assume you're an insensitive idiot, but either way, good times.

Push comes to shove, he's a $1.95 million top 6...

2008-07-07T20:34:00.000-06:00
Push comes to shove, he's a $1.95 million top 6 forward. He has more upside, and more recent proven history than his predecessor

I have no issue with the term or salary, as mentioned. However, when you're talking about a 33 year-old player with a history of injuries, serious baggage and generally falling offensive numbers, you can't really talk about "upside" anymore.

Last year, Bert played against nobodies, had just okay numbers at ES and a terrible PP rate. And according to a knowledgeable and obsessive Ducks fan, he was also a defensive liability.

Im very glad he's only 1.95M and that he's around for a 1 year term. He was one of the few options open to the Flames and is potentially replaceable if one of the kids somehow steps up. I think the most we can hope for out of him next season is "merely adequate". If he manages that, I'll be satisfied.

I also want to mention that if the flames commit t...

2008-07-07T20:27:00.000-06:00
I also want to mention that if the flames commit to a strong forecheck, and bertuzzi commits his body (as he's playing for his last contract) he could be a great addition.

There's not too many bodies that can skate on a dump in with Phaneuf and knock him over, and knock him over handily. That's Bertuzzi. Think about the defensemen he's going to play against, and the youth he's going to protect. One of the most vivid Bertuzzi memories I have from last year is Bertuzzi jumping Regehr after he went after Perry. (the infuriating fact that WE got the extra penalty notwithstanding) His soft hands, strong forecheck (god hope he isn't a Sandra Bullock movie on the forecheck) and mean streak seems to fit with current flames philosophy.

Wow, I never thought I would defend this side.

Okay okay,

Push comes to shove, he's a $1.9...

2008-07-07T20:06:00.000-06:00
Okay okay,

Push comes to shove, he's a $1.95 million top 6 forward. He has more upside, and more recent proven history than his predecessor, but unfortunately comes in with a horrible political tag.

The good news is that it's only a 1-year deal. A 1-year experiment. It works? Great! It doesn't work, it has no significant cap hit and he's buried in the bottom six with a kid excelling and taking his spot and we are better off with him in the line-up, than without.

Other than the public revulsion of having to cheer for a guy that we have spent the last 4 years despising, this could be a good hockey move. A sound hockey move. On paper it makes sense. Take a good player at his lowest value, with hopes that he will excel. We don't have many of those '?' on our roster.

Everyone has been talking about executing the guys who don't have the numbers to support their salaries, so look at this from a hockey perspective. A business perspective. He can be the second line RW/LW that the kids need to take the next step. he could be the mentor that Prust needs to excel in his role. Let it play out for the first 20 games then make your decision. Don't crucify the move until it utterly fails.

I'm more interested in the fact that we are probably the most hated team in the league now. Phaneuf. Bertuzzi. Vandermeer. Prust.

I think that if he feels fan support, and that he's playing for something rather than just collecting a paycheck, he will do much better than he has in the last two Sun-belt teams. Detroit notwithstanding (whom he played okay for 8 games)

Look at it this way. Who would you rather have for almost 2 million +: Tucker? Fedoruk? or Bertuzzi coming into a situation where he wants to excel?

He'll replace Nolan's numbers and then some. Keep in mind he only played 20 games with the kids in Anaheim (Getzlaf & Perry), and I think he could do some damage with langkow and iginla.

Well, from ANA's perspective, out goes Bertuzzi an...

2008-07-07T18:35:00.000-06:00
Well, from ANA's perspective, out goes Bertuzzi and in comes Morrison, and I'm smiling.

If we're thanking Bert for unintended consequences...

2008-07-07T17:46:00.000-06:00
If we're thanking Bert for unintended consequences then I should probably thank him for today as well: this is - by far - the most hits this blog has gotten in a single day since it's inception.

in hindsight, I'm not sure why we Calgarians disli...

2008-07-07T17:32:00.000-06:00
in hindsight, I'm not sure why we Calgarians dislike bertuzzi so much? The guy almost won us a Stanley Cup... if not for for his attack on Moore and subsequent suspension, we probably don't get past round 1 in '04!

Who called it??

2008-07-07T17:21:00.000-06:00
Who called it??

Sounds about right; but I think the downgrade i...

2008-07-07T17:16:00.000-06:00
Sounds about right; but I think the downgrade in the top 6 is pretty significant.

Iginla
Langkow
Tanguay
Huselius
Lombardi
Nolan

Goes to:

Iginla
Langkow
Cammy
Lombardi
Bertuzzi
... Boyd?

Anyway you slice it, the first two are a year older on the wrong side of 30, and the last 4 all look to be downgrades from the previous year imo... with Tanguay to Cammy being the most glaring problem.

After the Iginla line, whose left to play somebodies?

That'll be the issue. I think Keenan will have to resort to sending out Iginla against the other top guns (which should work, except when playing Detroit) and then hope the rest of the roster can play their counter-parts to evens (unless some combination of Moss/Conroy/Bourque can become some sort of shut-down trio - which is a questionable assumption right now, at best).

pdo: I'd say you're out of your mind. The Oiler...

2008-07-07T17:05:00.000-06:00
pdo: I'd say you're out of your mind. The Oilers have a lot of powerplay specialists and very few defensemen, that means a lot.

I'm not sold that the Oilers have a guy who can really drive results at 5v5...

The thing is, is it almost looks like we have 3 second pairings. No one you'd love to have against Iginla... but no one who can only play against Primeau. Visnovsky is at one end of that spectrum, Souray at the other. Depending on the steps taken forward and back by the kids, we'll see what happens... but guys like Grebeshkov and Gilbert played quality minutes last year and survived.

So if they can send out a top 4 that includes Gilbert, Grebeshkov, Visnovksy and Staios, I think that's good enough that they hold on.. and then Bobby Smid and Sheldon Souray get cleanup duty.

Short version: The Flames bottom 6 is much improved while the top 6 is inferior as compared to last year. Flames are probably a play-off bubble squad, with the swing depending on how Kipper plays.

Sounds about right; but I think the downgrade in the top 6 is pretty significant.

Iginla
Langkow
Tanguay
Huselius
Lombardi
Nolan

Goes to:

Iginla
Langkow
Cammy
Lombardi
Bertuzzi
... Boyd?

Anyway you slice it, the first two are a year older on the wrong side of 30, and the last 4 all look to be downgrades from the previous year imo... with Tanguay to Cammy being the most glaring problem.

After the Iginla line, whose left to play somebodies?

Of course, if Kipper plays like he can (read: top 5 tender in the league), that puts a lot of problems to rest in Calgary simply by going from mediocre, at best, to stellar goaltending over one season. Very curious to see how that plays out, especially with Kipper being a perennial slow starter and Keenan being Keenan.

The only reason I like this move is because as ...

2008-07-07T16:32:00.000-06:00
The only reason I like this move is because as far I can tell, Sutter didn't have a choice. If we didn't get Bertuzzi, we probably would have had David freaking Moss playing on our second line.

It would be nice if the team was in a position where we wouldn't even have to consider picking up guys like Bertuzzi, but the unfortunate reality is that we're a terrible hockey team with zero depth, so we have no choice but to make moves like this.

Ladies and gentlemen, your 2009 Calgary Flames!

I think a certain colloquial phrase works here...how's it go again? "better than nuthin'?" Yeah. That's where we're at I guess.

pdo:

With the Flames now probably finished ...

2008-07-07T16:23:00.000-06:00
pdo:

With the Flames now probably finished for the off-season, I'll likely do a team vs. divisional assessment this week.

Short version: The Flames bottom 6 is much improved while the top 6 is inferior as compared to last year. Flames are probably a play-off bubble squad, with the swing depending on how Kipper plays.

pdo: I'd say you're out of your mind. The Oilers ...

2008-07-07T16:05:00.000-06:00
pdo: I'd say you're out of your mind. The Oilers have a lot of powerplay specialists and very few defensemen, that means a lot.

Metro:

I come in peace, honest :-).

...

2008-07-07T15:46:00.000-06:00
Metro:

I come in peace, honest :-).

Just wanted to rattle off a few points in general on the Flames and see where you stand...

I don't have Giordano's cap hit, but from what I can tell this signing puts the Flames slightly over the cap if you include the guys they waived who weren't picked up, does it not? I'm also pretty sure I've read that Sutter said he won't be buying anyone out, so what exactly is going to happen here? Is Warrener going to get paid $2,500,000 to play in the AHL? Or is there a potential destination for Aucoin?

Secondly, the Flames are... at least noticably weaker this year than they were last year, correct? Nolan played much tougher competition than Tuzzi, and isn't as injury prone.... most of the 'sphere seems to think that Cammy is a straight replacement for Huselius...

So that leaves GlenX coming in for Tanguay, which is obviously a huge downgrade, and Giordano replacing Hale, which is a nice, but minor, upgrade.

Sound about right? Are the Flames a playoff team right now? Am I out of my mind to think, that at least on paper, the Oilers have a better team?

The only reason I like this move is because as far...

2008-07-07T15:22:00.000-06:00
The only reason I like this move is because as far I can tell, Sutter didn't have a choice. If we didn't get Bertuzzi, we probably would have had David freaking Moss playing on our second line.

It would be nice if the team was in a position where we wouldn't even have to consider picking up guys like Bertuzzi, but the unfortunate reality is that we're a terrible hockey team with zero depth, so we have no choice but to make moves like this.

Ladies and gentlemen, your 2009 Calgary Flames!

Comments on Five Hole Fanatics: Flames Sign Dispicable F'ing (*&$(*&$(*&!

So what if he can't play hockey? The guy sucked...

Politics vs Hockey:It's laughable w...

Bertuzzi will just help the young punk Phaneuf ...

Hey the way I see it, now I can watch one team and...

I like your thinking, Joe, but I think the real ke...

Robert:My thinking is running close to you...

I have this sneaking suspicion that Bertuzzi is he...

Wow . . . I can feel the rationalization kicking i...

Im not disagreeing with you. You're painting the r...

By upside, I mean his offensive contribution at on...

I forgot to bring up Bertuzzi's "other" upside. <...

Push comes to shove, he's a $1.95 million top 6...

I also want to mention that if the flames commit t...

Okay okay,Push comes to shove, he's a $1.9...

Well, from ANA's perspective, out goes Bertuzzi an...

If we're thanking Bert for unintended consequences...

in hindsight, I'm not sure why we Calgarians disli...

Who called it??

Sounds about right; but I think the downgrade i...

pdo: I'd say you're out of your mind. The Oiler...

The only reason I like this move is because as ...

pdo:With the Flames now probably finished ...

pdo: I'd say you're out of your mind. The Oilers ...

Metro:I come in peace, honest :-)....

The only reason I like this move is because as far...

Comments on Five Hole Fanatics: Flames Sign Dispicable F'ing (&$(&$(*&!

Politics vs Hockey:

It's laughable w...

Robert:

My thinking is running close to you...

Okay okay,

Push comes to shove, he's a $1.9...

pdo:

With the Flames now probably finished ...

Metro:

I come in peace, honest :-).

...